mitja

this thread is to discuss about match engine (ME). the goal is to put some constructive thoughts about ME, for the game to improve further, critisize what's wrong about it and give fresh ideas. I think ME is/ should be the heart of this game and it's strange that this community hasn't got a fair thread about ME. many ME ideas abd thoughts are in many different threads and I will also try to paste those into this one.


some of the features of match engine are:


- match: resoults, match events of any kind (fouls, cards, goals, off sides, player movement...)

- tactical aspect of ME (how is tactics reflecting in ME)

- interaction part in match engine (media talks, team talks reflecting in ME)

- technical problems in ME



one thing I would like to keep out of this thread is SOT/Goal ratio. even though it's important part of ME. there are millions of threads about that metter.

mitja

[quote]of course they need new features, but why? to attract newers to buy this game. but it's far worse if they loose their long term clients isn't it?[quote]


Originally posted by George Graham:

It is but this series needs an injection of something fresh.

For so long FM has stood head and shoulders above its competitors, not so much in terms of features but because it just did things better and in a more realistic way.

Now looking at what the CM guys are doing I see a lot more effort on their parts to innovate, whereas SI seem to be steeped in the days of CM3 where we would get excited about a little touch here or there, or a new option.

I know we get told that SI have a relatively small team, but I wish that rather than small changes that are spread pretty thin over the whole of FM, that SI would focus on really transforming in a big way one area of the game.

I know that to make an impressive list of new features for the game is important, but really the sum of these new features isnt to the extent that you feel your playing anything other than slightly updated or tweaked version. Theres just nothing that ever takes this game forward in anything other than teeny-tiny steps.

I appreciate that there is plenty going on under the bonnet as such- but with FMs competitors (well CM anyway) gaining ground but adding more exciting and interesting features than SI are coming up with then there will be a risk that people will jump ship.

This player bought CM08 (my first CM since SI left) as something to play before the patch, and I was pleasantly surprised. Its not perfect and just as infuriating as FM at times but nowhere near the trainwreck of CM5.

mitja

also posted by George Graham: (hope he aprooves it)

Its not about making the game easier in terms of the challenge, its about making the tactical side more intuitive and more akin to real life- whereas currently its all about beating FM, not beating real life tactical situations.

FM is currently challenging for all the wrong reasons.

mitja

posted by Arnoldzhu:

I'm not giving up to anything I mean I still think we need more efficient way and interface to setting training or tactics in the game but the game is actually much more complicated then it appears. I love this game and appreciate the efforts SI people made.

As to the match engine we can see it's really improving all through these years. The only factor I can come up with is the players' off-the-ball running. Players should move more frequently especially high working-rate midfield players, they should move up and down and from center to right/left according to where the ball in on the pitch when his teammate is controlling the ball.

mitja

Originally posted by Cleon:

I think people need to take a little step back and make sure they actually understand the basics of the match engine first and foremost before anything else. Keep it all simple and you'll have success, find a system that works for you and what you are comfy with and not try and use what works for someone else.


Vril's response:

What kind of advice is this? It is very easy to say somebody he doesn't understand the game or match engine, when there is not much information about it, and no one can instruct what, when and why. I was trying to keep it simple, as you said, for over 9 season, playing couple of teams, and never found out what was working for me what wasn't. Every post-games conclusions seemed not to work in next few games. In this FM, there isn't any consistency or certainty of match engine principles (?). What was working for let say 3-4 games seemed not to work few next times as I said before. Of course you can't say me to stop playing at all or I am unable to understand the game. You can say 'try to understand game', but this is so general as it is useless and this is not the answer.

I am just trying to understand this game but it seems to be "Mission Impossible'.
Sorry for my bad English.

mitja

Posted by Millie:

I do. A lot. Indeed, as part of another forum, the team working on tactic there have sent dozens of e-mails to SI complaining and offering criticisms as to where the game needs improvement. There are many problems with the game, many problems with the match engine.

My issue comes with the fact that the game isn't as unplayable and broken as everyone suggests. My other problem is that most of the moaners will not listen to another view point because we're "fan boys". An alternative is offered and this is "too complicated", "defending the game for the sake of it" ad nauseam.

This is a good game. It does have many faults though, and only and idiot would think it was flawless. But outside the match engine I think the game is fantastic - and in the match engine there are plenty of things people can do but don't to make the game winable and enjoyable.

I have no problem with people disliking the game. I can both see why they do and have pointed out the problems many times. This doesn't make me a blind sheep.

But then, things have to be black and white, don't they. God forbid that an opinion can be nuanced... Roll Eyes

mitja

Posted by Powermonger:
I agree with the basic sentiment of this post but maybe not in the delivery, though frustration can do that to you. Smile

When I start ordering professional tactical training books off Amazon to try and attempt to understand a PC game, I know there is something wrong.

I hate the way tactics are currently configured in FM, I've disliked them since it was introduced in CM4. There is too much ambiguity in the slider settings and it's very hard to distinguish a link back to the 2D engine, making for a very frustrating experience. We went from a rather simple and understandable Wibble/Wobble tactical interface over to a convoluted system of 21 notched set of sliders that only the very astute can understand.

The problem I see now is that tactics and the match engine are so intertwined that SI have no intention of changing the way tactics are configured. They haven't touched tactics since CM4, 6 versions of no changes at all, only tweaks to the match engine.

If SI have no intention of altering or perfecting tactical settings, then they need to give us better tools and information to analyse them by, because having to rely on watching full matches all the time to try and understand where you are failing is time consuming and not enjoyable.

Again this is another area SI are reluctant to change, only things they've added since the days of CM3 in the way of information is the 2D match engine, it shouldn't stop there though. We need more statistics to help pinpoint problems better with an easier method to link back to our tactics.

ChampMan has introduced ProZone into their series which graphically helps to break down plays and player performance, and used intelligently with the right filtering of information, makes it much easier to pin point issues or areas of good performance.

I know arguments have been made in the past that it adds nothing to the game and is a 'mess' but the information it can supply a gamer is far superior to relying solely on watching 'lady beetles' running around the screen and trying to take everything in at once. I'd rather have the ability to view too much information then not be given enough, like we suffer from now.

As I've stated in previous posts, having access to more information is not about winning all the time, it's about enjoying the game more and developing a better understanding of the game as a whole, instead constantly getting frustrated by a engine and interface that just make the average gamers play time difficult and unrewarding.

mitja

Posted by UEELfan:

Pleasantly pleased of how long discussion has been going over here without degenerating into inane rambling. Big thumbs up to every contributor here.

As for what's right and wrong in the game, I must agree that the main problem right now is that the MCs really don't perform that well defensively in a 442. A 451 improves it a bit, but it creates other issues.

However, the main problem with 08 is not the goal/shot ratio but rather the 'too many chances created'.

Really. It all goes down to the fact that too many chances are created. If those chances were cut before the oposition got into a position to make a shot, the game would improve a lot.

I'm also of those who take what is being shown in 2D with a pinch of salt, because I really do think that the engine sometimes can't represent what is happening behind the scenes (thus the clear cut chances missed, or the defenders making a step forward before starting to trail back after a long ball by the oposition). I'd also like to see the commentary inmatch improved. It's shocking how poor the game reads nowadays if you actually try to only use the commentary.

That being said, the game's got potential. Lots of it. Sort the excessive chances, sort the confidence module, sort the transfer module (the way the Artifitial Inteligence treats negotiation is beyond a joke)and you have a winner.

Heck, I've already put 11 seasons in it with all those niggling issues, imagine what I'll do when it gets sorted.

mitja

posted by Mitja:

major thing that FM failed is that tactics are so much important then player ability.you frequantly get some C-league teams playing like Barca. 50 meter runs, perfect passes, screamers, holding the ball in last minutes...it's all normal no metter who do you play. on the other hand you have a feeling that your players don't have any brain. I know this is a game but c'mon where is some kind of human factor in this game? it's missing. I have a feeling that I'm dealing with machines not players.... run with that, creative freedom that...c'mon is that the way team are managed IRE??! not to mention how many tweaks AI is able to perform. yes real managers have some influence on the game they can change some instructions like screaming too their FB to stay back a little more and stuff. but defenetly human factor is missing.

I just don't have a feeling things are right. I can't compare FM to real life football anymore... too robotic. I mean ME has improved but then you have all this stupid little bugs like your MCs didn't hear of football and 1/1 bug and it all fails apart.

ok we wanted this game to become more like simulation (harder), but what has changed? face gen? tactics, training, interaction? things went so complecated. half of features don't work or only at 50%; preffered moves? you must be joking. movement/postioning? like watching 80 year old grand mothers prepering to die, but no problem for some regen with pace and dribling of 7 to make those 50 meter runs. the game just isn't the same for humans and AI.

what's the most sad thing about it all? it's still the best game of it0s kind on the market Confused

gunnerfan

I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender.

I think a lot of the frustration we see regarding the match engine is really more about the tactical interface. Although we've made a lot of progress since the days of "wibble/wobble", there are still limitations.